Current Theme:  Meta-Psychology

Universal Cognition               SD i 74-75

Speech and Mind            SD i 94-96

Seven Planes of Consciousness   SD i  199-200

The Three-Tongued Flame    SD i 237

Demon Est Deus Inversus     SD i 411-424

Solar and Lunar Ancestors     SD ii 90-95

Bondage and Freedom            SD ii 109-110

The Fall of Angels                    SD ii 227-248

Descent and Ascent                 SD ii 271-301

The Cycle of Incarnations        SD  ii 483-492

The Riddle of the Sphinx          SD  ii 512-517

Kshetragna                               SD  ii 635-640

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Universal Cognition SD i 74-75

In the "Book of Hermes," Pymander, the oldest and the most spiritual of the Logoi of the Western Continent, appears to Hermes in the shape of a Fiery Dragon of "Light, Fire, and Flame." Pymander, the "Thought Divine" personified, says: The Light is me, I am the Nous (the mind or Manu), I am thy God, and I am far older than the human principle which escapes from the shadow ("Darkness," or the concealed Deity). I am the germ of thought, the resplendent Word, the Son of God. All that thus sees and hears in thee is the Verbum of the Master, it is the Thought (Mahat) which is God, the Father.† The celestial Ocean, the Æther . . . . is the Breath of the Father, the life-giving principle, the Mother, the Holy Spirit, . . . .for these are not separated, and their union is LIFE."

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Can students comment on why the above passage sheds insight on the field of human psychology?

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Psychology for me, perhaps looking at it from a more classical point of view rather than a contemporary one, centers around the conception of self.  The central question being "who am I?". Typically we identify with name and form but man, from Manas, is the thinker.  Where is the source of thought?  Well the Book of Hermes is pointing to mysterious sources for the power of thought.  The Secret Doctrine is pointing to a "God" within man which is the source of the power of thought.

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I found your comments very helpful Alex.   The Who Am I? question might be the center for philosophy too.

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Speech and Mind            SD i 94-96

The "Army of the Voice," is the prototype of the "Host of the Logos," or the "WORD" of the Sepher Jezirah, called in the Secret Doctrine "the One Number issued from No-Number" — the One Eternal Principle. The esoteric theogony begins with the One, manifested, therefore not eternal in its presence and being, if eternal in its essence; the number of the numbers and numbered — the latter proceeding from the Voice, the feminine Vâch, Satarupa "of the hundred forms," or Nature. It is from this number 10, or creative nature, the Mother (the occult cypher, or "nought," ever procreating and multiplying in union with the Unit "I," one, or the Spirit of Life), that the whole Universe proceeded.

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Can comments and corrections be made for the following assertions:

First Logos= No Number

Second Logos= One

Third Logos = Ten or Creative Nature, the Mother  (see above quote)

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It seems that the 1st logos is the number one manifesting (and then withdrawing again, remaining unmanifested). No number applies to the absolute. The second logos contains the tetraktys or 10 dots (the archetypes within the mother substance), which when acted upon by the Demiurgus manifests as the third logos. Therefore "the number of the numbers and numbered". The number is the 1st logos, the numbers (tetraktys) is the 2nd (although it potentially already exists within the first) and the numbered are the virtually infinite differentiations of the 3rd logos beginning with a sevenfold manifestation.

See Transactions p. 106: "As stated by Pythagoras, and also in the Stanza, the Ray (the Pythagorean Monad) descending from "no-place" (Aloka), shoots like a falling star through the planes of non-being into the first world of being, and gives birth to Number One"

As to the word "manifesting", we have to be careful with it as HPB applies it to all 3 logoi, so we have to look at the context in which she applies that word. But there is a distinction between manifesting and differentiating. The first manifestation of anyone of the three logoi is always a homogeneous appearance. Therefore HPB draws the distinction sometimes between radiation and  emanation. See Transactions p. 94

The first logos (in theological terms the Father) radiates through the second logos (the Mother) and emanates as the third logos (the Son) or the differentiated universe.

The Secret Doctrine gives a very good synopsis of this process in Volume 1 p. 380.

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Pierre, I just saw your post after posting mine in reply to Gerry's. It seems that we pretty much came to the same conclusions about this. Thanks for your good references.

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Thanks for reminding me of the ML quote as well David, that's how we help each other understanding the un-understandable :-)

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Yes, thank you for the clarification both Pierre and David.  This makes better sense now.

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Pierre what do you mean by " a homogeneous appearance".  That is an interesting phrase.

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The manifestation of anyone of the logoi at first is a ubiquitous homogenous presence before any differentiation can set in, just as one need to have the ubiquitous appearance or existence of clay before the potter can get to work and differentiate the clay into pots of different or differentiated forms, or, first you need the ubiquitous appearance of moist in the air before it can differentiate into raindrops.

Prakriti (the phenomenon) is the objective manifestation of mulaprakriti (its noumenon or root), this phenomenon or appearance has to be homogenous before it can differentiate or emanate. It is the substratum of all individualized vehicles for consciousness to manifest through. So Maha-Buddhi in cosmos or Buddhi in man is a universal (spriritual) substance that functions as the medium through which Atma can manifest as an individual differentiated manasic ray. 

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Permalink Reply by David Reigle on April 10, 2015 at 11:31am
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Gerry, I think you set us up for this by including the word "corrections." If we follow HPB in SD 1.16, the first logos must = one, while no number is reserved for the absolute. The second logos would be two, as a potentiality, since it cannot manifest as such. Only with the third logos do we have actual manifestation. It therefore = three, the necessary result of the relationship between two poles when these cease to be potentials only. It would of course then be followed by ten. We must also keep in mind that HPB's use of the term "logos" is her own, influenced by Philo's usage, and quite different from Plato's usage of this term. On these numerical ideas, see Mahatma letter #59:

"Pythagoras had a reason for never using the finite, useless figure — 2, and for altogether discarding it. The ONE, can, when manifesting, become only 3. The unmanifested when a simple duality remains passive and concealed. The dual monad (the 7th and 6th principles) has, in order to manifest itself as a Logos, the "Kwan-shai-yin" to first become a triad (7th, 6th and half of the 5th); then, on the bosom of the "Great Deep" attracting within itself the One Circle — form out of it the perfect Square, thus "squaring the circle" — the greatest of all the mysteries, friend — and inscribing within the latter the — WORD (the Ineffable name) — otherwise the duality could never tarry as such, and would have to be reabsorbed into the ONE."

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 9, 2015 at 10:20pm
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Seven Planes of Consciousness   SD i  199-200

The following comparative diagram shows the identity between the two systems, the Kabalistic and the Eastern. The three upper are the three higher planes of consciousness, revealed and explained in both schools only to the Initiates, the lower ones represent the four lower planes—the lowest being our plane, or the visible Universe.

These seven planes correspond to the seven states of consciousness in man. It remains with him to attune the three higher states in himself to the three higher planes in Kosmos. But before he can attempt to attune, he must awaken the three "seats" to life and activity. And how many are capable of bringing themselves to even a superficial comprehension of Atma-Vidya (Spirit-Knowledge), or what is called by the Sufis, Rohanee! In Section the VIIth of this Book, in Sub-section 3,the reader will find a still clearer explanation of the above in the Commentary upon Saptaparna—the man-plant.

Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on April 10, 2015 at 12:23pm
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There is so much profound depth in this diagram it boggles the mind. The more I look at it, the more depth there seems to be.

It's referred to as a "comparative diagram", comparing the eastern to the western systems, but... the diagram shows only one triangle above both systems (i.e. if it was just placing the two systems side by side, wouldn't it show a triangle above each, so that each system is shown in its entirety?); this leads me to ponder: is it really a comparative diagram, or is it a singular diagram—i.e. not so much comparing the two sides to one another, but showing two different aspects of manifestation/evolution, and merely drawing terminology from two different systems?

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on April 11, 2015 at 7:05pm
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"is it really a comparative diagram, or is it a singular diagram"

I would lean towards calling it a singular comparative diagram :-) All kidding aside, why could it not be both? If we look at Isis Unveiled, Volume II and take a peek at the two foldout pages between pp. 264 and 265, the first foldout showing the Hindu approach and the second foldout showing the Chaldean (Kabalistic) approach, we see each containing a reference to the same triangle of SDI:200. 

The triangle from the Hindu perspective containing Nara, Nari and Viradj (later substituted with Brahmâ, Vishnu and Shiva) corresponding with the Kabalistic Kether, Chokmah and Binah. HPB spends no less than 6 pages explaining side by side the comparisons between the two systems (diagrams) starting on p. 266 (see also pp. 170-171).

The kabalistic tree containing 10 sephiroth, 7 manifested, 3 concealed (the triangle of SDI:200) corresponding with the 7 globes manifested on the rupa planes and 3 concealed on the arupa.

As to "merely drawing terminology from two different systems", we would indeed be hard pressed to find any true theosophical terminology (apart from the word theosophy itself) in all the theosophical literature of HPB and WQJ, the reason for it being explained in the Proem, p.23 of SDI. As the first rule of secrecy states that nothing truly esoteric is ever committed to writing, HPB (and her teachers) had no other recourse but to refer to exoteric systems and squeeze the esoteric marrow out of the exoteric skeleton while using exoteric nomenclature AND giving it a theosophical slant. We often see HPB using exoteric terminology from a particular religion or philosophy while at the same time explaining it from a theosophical perspective that often completely differs from the exoteric meaning.

The distinction between the 7 globes left and the 7 kabalistic on the right hand side of the rupa planes can be better understood by studying Isis, Vol. II, pp. 212-213 (Chapter V).

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 14, 2015 at 11:23pm
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The Three-Tongued Flame    SD i 237  the whole selection

4. IT IS THE ROOT THAT NEVER DIES, THE THREE-TONGUED FLAME OF THE FOUR WICKS * (a) . . . THE WICKS ARE THE SPARKS, THAT DRAW FROM THE THREE-TONGUED FLAME (their upper triad) SHOT OUT BY THE SEVEN, THEIR FLAME; THE BEAMS AND SPARKS OF ONE MOON REFLECTED IN THE RUNNING WAVES OF ALL THE RIVERS OF THE EARTH ("Bhumi," or "Prithivi") † (b).

(a) The "Three-tongued flame" that never dies is the immortal spiritual triad—the Atma-Buddhi and Manas—the fruition of the latter assimilated by the first two after every terrestrial life. The "four wicks" that go out and are extinguished, are the four lower principles, including the body.

"I am the three-wicked Flame and my wicks are immortal," says the defunct. "I enter into the domain of Sekhem (the God whose arm sows the seed of action produced by the disembodied soul) and I enter the region of the Flames who have destroyed their adversaries," i.e., got rid of the sin-creating "four wicks." (See chap. i., vii., "Book of the Dead," and the "Mysteries of Ro-stan.")

(b) Just as milliards of bright sparks dance on the waters of an ocean above which one and the same moon is shining, so our evanescent personalities—the illusive envelopes of the immortal MONAD-EGO—twinkle and dance on the waves of Maya. They last and appear, as the thousands of sparks produced by the moon-beams, only so long as the Queen of the Night radiates her lustre on the running waters of life: the period of a Manvantara; and then they disappear, the beams—symbols of our eternal Spiritual Egos—alone surviving, re-merged in, and being, as they were before, one with the Mother-Source.
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* The three-tongued flame of the four wicks corresponds to the four unities and the three Binaries of the Sephirothal tree (see Commentary on Stanza VI.).

† Useless to repeat again that the terms given here are Sanskrit translations; for the original terms, unknown and unheard of in Europe, would only puzzle the reader more, and serve no useful purpose.

Permalink Reply by David Reigle on April 15, 2015 at 8:31am
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Jeanine Miller wanted to find this quote from the Egyptian Book of the Dead when she was writing an essay on Egyptian religion for the German study edition of Isis Unveiled, since it so closely matches the stanza from the Book of Dzyan.

"I am the three-wicked Flame and my wicks are immortal," says the defunct. "I enter into the domain of Sekhem (the God whose arm sows the seed of action produced by the disembodied soul) and I enter the region of the Flames who have destroyed their adversaries," i.e., got rid of the sin-creating "four wicks." (See chap. i., vii., "Book of the Dead," and the "Mysteries of Ro-stan.")

Apparently the translation by Egyptologist Thomas George Allen, titled The Book of the Dead, or Going Forth by Day (1974), is well regarded academically. At Jeanine's request, I was able to obtain this book and check it for this quotation. No such statement was there. She had already checked the old translation by the pioneer Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge (1899). I also obtained and checked the translation by Egyptologist Raymond Oliver Faulkner, titled The Book of the Dead (1972). It would be good to find this quotation if it is there. Right now, this is a very big IF.

Permalink Reply by Casady on April 22, 2015 at 3:59pm
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There's something called the Ceremony of the Four Blazing Flames. Here's a text of it, that has some similarities with the passage, I think:

Of The Four Flames [From the Papyrus of Nu (British Museum No. 10,477, sheet 26).]

“The fire cometh to thy Ka, O Osiris, governor of Amenti; the fire cometh to thy Ka, O Osiris Nu, the overseer of the palace, the chancellor-in-chief, triumphant. He that ordereth the night cometh after the day. [The flame cometh to thy Ka, O Osiris, governor of those in Amenti] and the two sisters(?) of Rā come likewise. Behold, [the flame] riseth in Abtu (Abydos) and it cometh; and I cause it to come [to] the Eye of Horus."

The two sisters are Isis and Nephtys, so the passage can be considered to represent a flame Trinity representing Osiris, Isis, and Horus.

"The four flames enter into thy Ka, O Osiris, governor of Amenti, the four flames enter into thy ka, O Osiris Nu, the overseer of the palace, the chancellor-in-chief, triumphant. Hail, ye children of Horus, Mesthi, Hāpi, Tuamāutef and Qebhsennuf, ye have given your protection unto your divine Father Osiris, the governor of Amenti, grant ye your protection to the Osiris Nu, triumphant."

The four flames are related to the fours sons of Horus (symbolized with the four canopic jars  in funerary ritual) hence related to the quaternary.

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on April 22, 2015 at 7:55pm
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Interesting find Casady. Perhaps this relates to the statement from the "Catechism" in SD II:57

" Man needs four flames and three fires to become one on Earth, and he requires the essence of the forty-nine fires  § to be perfect."

Permalink Reply by Casady on April 24, 2015 at 2:26pm
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Thankys, there's lots of those little catechism pearls throughout the SD - HPB gives a full Egyptian septenary elsewhere:

(1) Osiris is Atma;

(2) Sa is Buddhi;

(3) Akh is Manas;

(4) Khou is Kama-rupa, the seat of terrestrial desires;

(5) Khaba is Lingha Sarira;

(6) Kha is Pranatma (vital principle);

(7) Sah is mummy or body.

(Theories about Reincarnation and Spirits, The Path, November 1886).

There are a lot of subtle bodies in Egyptian texts, so I think even the most materialistic contemporary Egyptologists would agree with 3 or 4 of HPB's correspondences if you update the spelling.

here's a new age listing that uses mainstream references:

· Khat (Kha) – the physical form
· Ka – the Spirit of Emotional Body
· Ba – the Soul
· Khaibit – the shadow
· Akhu (Akh, Khu, Ikhu) - being of light
· Sahu – the incorruptible spiritual body
· Sekhem – the life force
· Ab (Ib) – the heart 
· Ren – the true name.

http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/articles/ancient_egypt/the_book_of...

Permalink Reply by Casady on July 17, 2015 at 10:19am
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The following is a classic paper on Egyptian three-wick lamps (Journal of Egyptian Archaeology):

MN. de G. Davies, 'A peculiar form of New Kingdom lamp, J.E.A. X (1924), pp. 9-14;

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on April 15, 2015 at 7:22pm
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The sevenfold constitution of man is represented here as three flames and four wicks.  Which wick is not lit?   or are all lit from the one central flame, Atman?

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on April 26, 2015 at 11:31pm
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All the wicks are at present in full activity since we are passed the halfway mark of the 4th round - our 4th round corresponding with kama. (idem ditto for the Root Races as we are in the 5th sub-race of the 5th root race).

It is however a different matter with the flames since the lunar monad or the activated human manas is not fully developed yet, in fact not at all since it is still very much attached to the kamic principle (desire) as it is only its lower manasic element that has been activated by the Dhyanis between the 5th sub-race of the 3rd (Lemurian) root-race and the 4th sub-race of the 4th (Atlantean) root-race when they started incarnating and which thus in its totality took about the length/time of a complete root-race.

"It is the sphere [globe D] of final evolutionary adjustments, the world of Karmic scales, the Hall of Justice, where the balance is struck which determines the future course of the Monad during the remainder of its incarnations in the cycle. And therefore it is, that, after this central turning-point has been passed in the Great Cycle,  i.e., after the middle point [4th sub] of the Fourth [Root] Race in the Fourth Round on our Globe [D]  no more Monads can enter the human kingdom. The door is closed for this Cycle and the balance struck." SDI:182

HPB further explains in SDII:162 that Manas "will be relatively fully developed only in the following Round [the 5th], when it will have an opportunity of becoming entirely divine until the end of the Rounds."

By extension Buddhi in the 6th and Atma in the 7th round we may safely assume.

Therefore it is rather the flames that actually have not been developed at all at this moment. Although theosophy refers sometimes to the activity of higher manas or buddhi in relation to our present condition it is most likely that this refers only to the subdivision(s) of our lower manas which is also sevenfold as are all other principles in our sevenfold constitution.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on April 27, 2015 at 4:40am
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Hi Pierre,
 I am not sure if its just your wording and I have misinterpreted your meaning, but it is the whole of manas that is sevenfold not just the lower.
Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on April 27, 2015 at 1:00pm
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Hi James. There are, indeed, ways in which we may look at lower manas as divided sevenfold. There are also, as you point out, ways in which we may look at the whole of manas as sevenfold. We must be careful not to exclude one because of the other.

We may, for instance, utilize the diagram on p. 200 of volume 1 and, by analogy, imagine the whole diagram to represent any single principle in Man. So, the diagram can be made to represent Manas as a whole, in which case we then see Manas divided into a "higher" and a "lower": the higher being represented there as the triangle (the first three arupa planes), while the lower is represented by the four lower rupa planes. Thus we have Manas as a whole divided sevenfold, with the classic 3-4 division; BUT, in addition to this sevenfold division, we also see lower manas itself divided sevenfold, since there are seven "globes" on those lower four planes. So the principle itself is divided sevenfold (three higher, four lower), and the lower part is again divided sevenfold (these being the seven subdivisions or sub-principles of lower manas).

I've found it quite helpful to utilize that diagram in order to play with the correspondences when we apply the full diagram via analogy to different portions of Man or Cosmos. In the case of applying the diagram to Manas, the seven globes may be seen to correspond to the seven "steps" of the antaskaranic path, which may, by analogy, be related to the "ring pass not" and the path or process described in relation to it.

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on April 28, 2015 at 6:05pm
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Hi Jon,  At this point I do not see any co-relation between the 7 rupa globes on the 4 planes of the planetary logos,  to the 4 sub-planes of lower manas in man, which you say can be seen as 7. Perhaps a quote if you have one.

 There is an analogy between Man and Cosmos though in which man’s conception and gestation corresponds to Globes A to C, with birth being D, and E to G being growth, developing, and maturity of man before finally passing out of physical carnation. 

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on April 28, 2015 at 7:34pm
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Jon,    please correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be some confusion over the 7 rupa globes of the earth chain and their function.
 Ramprakash, Peter and myself discussed them to some extent in July last year and some interesting things came out of it.
Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on April 28, 2015 at 10:00pm
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Hi James, please bring up the confusion, it allows all of us to ponder the subject.

Jon's reply was very much to the point if you keep in mind that the whole of the SD represents in fact a formula pointed out by HPB already in SDI:20-21

"The history of cosmic evolution, as traced in the Stanzas, is, so to say, the abstract algebraical formula of that Evolution. Hence the student must not expect to find there an account of all the stages and transformations which intervene between the first beginnings of "Universal" evolution and our present state."

"The Stanzas, therefore, give an abstract formula which can beapplied, mutatis mutandis, to all evolution: to that of our tiny earth, to that of the chain of planets of which that earth forms one, to the solar Universe to which that chain belongs, and so on, in an ascending scale, till the mind reels and is exhausted in the effort."

"The seven Stanzas given in this volume represent the seven terms of this abstract formula."

"Stanza III. describes the Re-awakening of the Universe to life after Pralaya. It depicts the emergence of the "Monads" from their state of absorption within the ONE; the earliest and highest stage in the formation of "Worlds," the term Monad being one which may apply equally to the vastest Solar System or the tiniest atom."

To think that for instance the diagram in SDI:200 represents just one view is to not take advantage of this formula, there are many different ways of looking at it. The most obvious one as described by HPB is to think of it from a (K)cosmic perspective where the other globes are at present completely beyond our reach because ALL of our experiences take place on globe D in the 4th round.

Another perspective - one supported by Mr. Judge in the Forum Answers (about p. 30 or so) - is to look upon that diagram in its totality as only globe D! Thus to perceive the whole diagram as the subdivisions of globe D including the arupa planes.

Another one that HPB points out is the diagram in SDI:153, where she corresponds them with the 7 principles in man, each globe standing for one principle and the triangle on the arupa obviously representing the hypostatic function of Atman (3 in 1).

Another one that can be derived at by extension of this formula is to look upon the whole diagram as a single principle - corresponding to what Mr. Judge does with globe D! Since each principle has 7 subdivisions, the 7 planes then represent the 7 subdivisions of for instance Manas as a whole. But Manas is at least 2-fold (in reality 3-fold - see the refs at the end), in that it can be "divided" into a higher (3 subs or the triad - solar) and a lower (4 subs or rupa planes - lunar) function or process, in total making up the 7 MAIN divisions of Manas. But notice then that the lower manas (the 4 rupa subs) have again their own 7 subdivisions corresponding with the globes - and at the risk of driving us nuts - HPB points out that EACH of those subdivisions has AGAIN 7 subs, but let's not go there :-)

Therefore the 7 subs ("globes") of lower manas form the antaskaranic path explained in the Voice, esoterically however the lower manas is limited only to the 6 globes with and within the circle and our globe D representing only kama-manas - which makes Manas triple. As HPB points out in the Voice p.10, "Before thou set'st thy foot upon the ladder's upper rung, the ladder of the mystic sounds, thou hast to hear the voice of thy inner GOD in seven manners." and p.17, "Beware lest thou should'st set a foot still soiled upon the ladder's lowest rung. Woe unto him who dares pollute one rung with miry feet." This ladder forms thus those 7 steps or globes+ring of lower manas - we often think that our daily waking consciousness applies to lower manas whereas in fact it is only concerned with kama-manas or globe D - this (Jacobs) ladder to "heaven" corresponds by extension to the "Ring Pass Not" (the ring around the globes) - which contains the forces (the 6 globes) as explained in the SDI:292-293 and other places) of which man has to avail himself if he wants to reach the "Day be with Us" or "the other shore" at the threshold of nirvana or Atman on the arupa planes.

Undoubtedly there are many more ways to look at this diagram of SDI:200, for instance as a tetractys, or to replace the globes with Root-Races or sub-races, or the womb of a pregnant woman, etc., but that would make this thread too bulky, pun intended :-)

So please bring forward your confusion so we can all share, and don't forget, the above are suggestions applied by extension and correspondence (as Mr. Judge did) to the formula described and REPEATED 3 TIMES by HPB in the course of less than 2 pages at the very beginning of the SD! Non of this is set in stone and is not meant to convince anyone, we're sharing ideas in this forum, and if they go off the rails - to be determined by anyone for himself - adjustment becomes possible within our own understanding.

Here's another interesting ref in SDII: 254fn*, to the 3-fold manas (higher, lower and kama-manas) making with Atma-Buddhi together the pentagram or five-fold star.

""Follow the law of analogy" – the Masters teach. Atma-Buddhi is dual and Manas is triple; inasmuch as the former has two aspects, and the latter three, i.e., as a principle per se, which gravitates, in its higher aspect, to Atma-Buddhi, and follows, in its lower nature, Kama, the seat of terrestrial and animal desires and passions. Now compare the evolution of the Races, the First and the Second of which are of the nature of Atma-Buddhi, their passive Spiritual progeny, and the Third Root-Race shows three distinct divisions or aspects physiologically and psychically; the earliest, sinless; the middle portions awakening to intelligence; and the third and last decidedly animal: i.e., Manas succumbs to the temptations of Kama."

As also SDII:576n* "What is the meaning and the reason of this figure? [Pentagram] Because, Manas is the fifth principle, and because the pentagon is the symbol of Man – not only of the five-limbed, but rather of the thinking, conscious MAN."

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 1, 2015 at 6:24am
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Hi Pierre,  I read what you said and while I do not see a lot of it as you have put it, I realise that at times it may all be just a way to stretch our minds so as we each eventually find our own thread of truth to follow depending which path we are on, and nothing is set in concrete as you point out.

The wise student knows that if they close their minds and ridicule others ideas, they will by their own actions bar themselves from the Hall of Wisdom

I myself like trying to find the direct essence and following that where possible, eliminating that which does not fit. An example being your different versions of the antahkarana, which also varies in different schools. But as HPB says, the Occultists understands it as ‘the path or bridge between the Higher and the Lower Manas’ and which she explains very clearly it’s working in meditation using the green and blue triangles from her coloured diagram. This resonates with me so that is my path, but definitely not everyone’s.

Maybe if we took HPB's advice and coined English names for everything it would be easier and more universal. 

Consequently  I may not put all my ideas forward but will put some in parts.

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 1, 2015 at 10:05am
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Getting to the heart of the matter is always wise.  The core or center perhaps has a universal aspect which gives rise to and supports all the various perspectives that Pierre is pointing to.  Perhaps by definition the universal core of any idea cannot be expressed in words or placed in a box.  So all we can really talk about are the various perspectives and the hidden core can only be perceived on a plane that is beyond description.

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 1, 2015 at 4:43pm
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Hi Pierre, some my thoughts that bring up confusion with some of the other ideas presented, therefore open to pondering.   

Three stages (sub-physical) on the elemental side; the mineral kingdom; three stages on the objective physical* side—these are the (first or preliminary) seven links of the evolutionary chain. SD 1/176

As I understand it Globes A, B, C, consist of elementals/elemental essence on the involutionary arc, their goal being ever downwards to eventually become physical in a future manvantara.

The elemental essence that makes up mans subtle rupa bodies is part of, or made from, these Globes A, B, C. This natural downward tendency of these elementals makes the line of least resistance for us is towards physical/sensual/material experiences, thus blocking and frustrating our efforts to soul/spiritual consciousness.....

Ramprakash’s July comments/reply using different words as he was confused with mine;

 That elementals will pass into mineral kingdom is right. That is what SD teaches. Third fundamental proposition says as much.

Do I understand you to say that these elemental kingdoms which go to make up our lower sheaths--body, Astral Body, Kama and Prana--provide the tenement for the Ego, and which at the same time obscure our spiritual perceptions by their grossness or inertness ?....If that is the point, I think you are right. 

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 1, 2015 at 5:46pm
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Therefore the present Mineral Kingdom (Globe D) is collectively the physical body of the Terrestrial Spirit of the Earth. In the previous Manvantara this Planetary Spirit would have been one rung lower and the Elemental Kingdom would have collectively been that Spirit. (by one rung lower i am referring to the 10 rung ladder of Barborka's and the elemental kingdom I am meaning is the one prior to the mineral kingdom,  or Globe C)

Put another way The sum total of the Planetary Spirit of Globe C will condense and become the mineral kingdom,  of a new planet in another Manvantara, this being the end of the downward arc before the start their evolutionary journey" ( one needs to leave the actual solid condensing process for another place)

 Edited Quote  SD Commentaries p 100  The Planetary Spirit of the Earth is also called the terrestrial spirit of the earth, is not of a very high grade, and has nothing to do with the spiritual man, but with things of matter and cosmic beings. With spirit it is the Dhyani-Buddhas who have to do, another hierarchy.

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 2, 2015 at 4:03pm
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"So all we can really talk about are the various perspectives and the hidden core can only be perceived on a plane that is beyond description."

Well played, sir! :-)

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 2, 2015 at 5:47pm
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Hi James,

"if that is the point,". yup, that's indeed the point James, I don't see why you refer to confusion, you've put it very well, I can follow your line of thought. One approach does not invalidate the other one.

Besides, the approach as to the Elemental kingdoms does not only apply to globes A, B and C, and mineral to D, they also apply to round 1, 2 and 3, and mineral to 4 by correspondence.

"Do I understand you to say that these elemental kingdoms which go to make up our lower sheaths--body, Astral Body, Kama and Prana--provide the tenement for the Ego, and which at the same time obscure our spiritual perceptions by their grossness or inertness ?"

Indeed, they are at present the veils (the accumulated totality of previous rounds and involuting globes) we have to overcome in order to move up through the antaskaranic path.

"Therefore the present Mineral Kingdom (Globe D) is collectively the physical body of the Terrestrial Spirit of the Earth."

Yes.

"In the previous Manvantara this Planetary Spirit would have been one rung lower"

I assume by previous Manvantara you are referring to the moon chain, not a previous round on this chain, which the SD indeed seems to imply.

"and the Elemental Kingdom would have collectively been that Spirit."

The mineral kingdom on our globe D is the precipitation of the 3rd elemental kingdom and is as you pointed out the physical body of the Planetary Spirit.

The Planetary Spirit itself (its spirit) is obviously not the mineral kingdom but seems indeed to be represented by the Elemental kingdom(s), making up its Atma-Buddhi-Manas (of the Planetary Spirit) - not of the solar pitris or Dhyani-Buddhas. But it is not because this Planetary Spirit is not of a high grade that it is not a self-conscious entity, as HPB explains in the Secret Doctrine Dialogues p.479 (p.493 in Commentaries)

"Mr. B. Keightley: Question 8. Has a planet an individuality as a man has an Ego?

Mme. Blavatsky: It has. Its ruling spirit, or governor, as it is called in Pimander,5 is self-conscious. Any questions to that?"

Globe A, B and C, as also round 1, 2, and 3 correspond with Atma-Buddhi-Manas in sequence during involution (or the elemental stages - the first elemental kingdom being the homogeneous substance or prakriti of our chain), and our globe D and round 4 correspond with kama-(manas).

The reverse will take place starting with round 5, Higher Manas-Buddhi-Atma in sequence, therefore HPB can say that Manas will only be fully developed in the 5th round, our present globe D and round 4 being the equilibrium and fulcrum between matter (involution, globes ABC) and spirit (evolution, globes EFG).

The elemental kingdoms themselves are also sevenfold, have thus a relatively higher and lower aspect to it. It is only the 4 lower degrees of each elemental kingdom that make up the "physical" constituents of the planetary vehicles for the mineral, vegetable, animal and human kingdoms, the 3 higher aspects of each elemental kingdom represent the "spirit" of the Planetary Spirit whom may perhaps correspond - if not be identical with - the Lunar Pitric element of our Planetary chain.

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 18, 2015 at 3:40pm
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Demon Est Deus Inversus     SD i 411-424

DEMON EST DEUS INVERSUS.

THIS symbolical sentence, in its many-sided forms, is certainly most dangerous and iconoclastic in the face of all the dualistic later religions—or rather theologies—and especially so in the light of Christianity. Yet it is neither just nor correct to say that it is Christianity which has conceived and brought forth Satan. As an "adversary," the opposing Power required by the equilibrium and harmony of things in Nature—like Shadow to throw off still brighter the Light, like Night to bring into greater relief the Day, and like cold to make one appreciate the more the comfort of heat—SATAN has ever existed. Homogeneity is one and indivisible. But if the homogeneous One and Absolute is no mere figure of speech, and if heterogeneity in its dualistic aspect, is its offspring—its bifurcous shadow or reflection—then even that divine Homogeneity must contain in itself the essence of both good and evil. If "God" is Absolute, Infinite, and the Universal Root of all and everything in Nature and its universe, whence comes Evil or D'Evil if not from the same "Golden Womb" of the absolute? Thus we are forced either to accept the emanation of good and evil, of Agathodæmon and Kakodæmon as offshoots from the same trunk of the Tree of Being, or to resign ourselves to the absurdity of believing in two eternal Absolutes!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on April 25, 2015 at 8:45am
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What does this passage tell us about human psychology? Is every man capable of being a Gandhi or a Hitler?

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 24, 2015 at 8:45pm
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Solar and Lunar Ancestors     SD ii 90-95

The names of the deities of a certain mystic class change with every Manvantara. Thus the twelve great gods, Jayas, created by Brahmâ to assist him in the work of creation in the very beginning of the Kalpa, and who, lost in Samadhi, neglected to create — whereupon they were cursed to be repeatedly born in each Manvantara till the seventh — are respectively called Ajitas, Tushitas, Satyas, Haris, Vaikunthas, Sadhyas, and Adityas: they are Tushitas (in the second Kalpa), and Adityas in this Vaivasvata period (see Vayu Purâna), besides other names for each age. But they are identical with the Manasa or Rajasas, and these with our incarnating Dhyan Chohans. They are all classes of the Gnana-devas.

Yes; besides those beings, who, like the Yakshas, Gandharvas, Kinaras, etc., etc., taken in their individualities, inhabit the astral plane, there are real Devagnanams, and to these classes of Devas belong the Adityas, the Vairâjas, the Kumaras, the Asuras, and all those high celestial beings whom Occult teaching calls Manaswin, the Wise, foremost of all, and who would have made all men the self-conscious spiritually intellectual beings they will be, had they not been "cursed" to fall into generation, and to be reborn themselves as mortals for their neglect of duty.

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 25, 2015 at 10:28am
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Bondage and Freedom            SD ii 109-110

This fire is the higher Self, the Spiritual Ego, or that which is eternally reincarnating under the influence of its lower personal Selves, changing with every re-birth, full of Tanha or desire to live. It is a strange law of Nature that, on this plane, the higher (Spiritual) Nature should be, so to say, in bondage to the lower. Unless the Ego takes refuge in the Atman, the ALL-SPIRIT, and merges entirely into the essence thereof, the personal Ego may goad it to the bitter end. This cannot be thoroughly understood unless the student makes himself familiar with the mystery of evolution, which proceeds on triple lines  spiritual, psychic and physical.

Permalink Reply by ModeratorTN on April 25, 2015 at 10:29am
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Bondage and Freedom            SD ii 109-110  revisited

That which propels towards, and forces evolution, i.e., compels the growth and development of Man towards perfection, is (a) the MONAD, or that which acts in it unconsciously through a force inherent in itself; and (b) the lower astral body or the personal SELF. The former, whether imprisoned in a vegetable or an animal body, is endowed with, is indeed itself, that force. Owing to its identity with the ALL-FORCE, which, as said, is inherent in the Monad, it is all-potent on the Arupa, or formless plane. On our plane, its essence being too pure, it remains all-potential, but individually becomes inactive: e.g., the rays of the Sun, which contribute to the growth of vegetation, do not select this or that plant to shine upon. Uproot the plant and transfer it to a piece of soil where the sunbeam cannot reach it, and the latter will not follow it. So with the Atman: unless the higher Self or EGO gravitates towards its Sun — the Monad — the lower Ego, or personal Self, will have the upper hand in every case. For it is this Ego, with its fierce Selfishness and animal desire to live a Senseless life (Tanha), which is "the maker of the tabernacle," as Buddha calls it in Dhammapada (153 and 154). Hence the expression, "the Spirits of the Earth clothed the shadows and expanded them." To these "Spirits" belong temporarily the human astral selves; and it is they who give, or build, the physical tabernacle of man, for the Monad and its conscious principle, Manas, to dwell in. But the "Solar" Lhas, Spirits, warm them, the shadows. This is physically and literally true; metaphysically, or on the psychic and spiritual plane, it is equally true that the Atman alone warms the inner man; i.e., it enlightens it with the ray of divine life and alone is able to impart to the inner man, or the reincarnating Ego, its immortality. Thus, as we shall find, for the first three and a half Root-Races, up to the middle or turning point, it is the astral shadows of the "progenitors," the lunar Pitris, which are the formative powers in the Races, and which build and gradually force the evolution of the physical form towards perfection — this, at the cost of a proportionate loss of spirituality. Then, from the turning point, it is the Higher Ego, or incarnating principle, the nous or Mind, which reigns over the animal Ego, and rules it whenever it is not carried down by the latter. In short, Spirituality is on its ascending arc, and the animal or physical impedes it from steadily progressing on the path of its evolution only when the selfishness of the personality has so strongly infected the real inner man with its lethal virus, that the upward attraction has lost all its power on the thinking reasonable man. In sober truth, vice and wickedness are an abnormal, unnatural manifestation, at this period of our human evolution — at least they ought to be so. The fact that mankind was never more selfish and vicious than it is now, civilized nations having succeeded in making of the first an ethical characteristic, of the second an art, is an additional proof of the exceptional nature of the phenomenon.

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on April 30, 2015 at 9:44pm
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Descent and Ascent                 SD ii 271-301

  What was the religion of the Third and Fourth Races? In the common acceptation of the term, neither the Lemurians, nor yet their progeny, the Lemuro-Atlanteans, had any, as they knew no dogma, nor had they to believe on faith. No sooner had the mental eye of man been opened to understanding, than the Third Race felt itself one with the ever-present as the ever to be unknown and invisible ALL, the One Universal Deity. Endowed with divine powers, and feeling in himself his inner God, each felt he was a Man-God in his nature, though an animal in his physical Self. The struggle between the two began from the very day they tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Wisdom; a struggle for life between the spiritual and the psychic, the psychic and the physical. Those who conquered the lower principles by obtaining mastery over the body, joined the "Sons of Light." Those who fell victims to their lower natures, became the slaves of Matter. From "Sons of Light and Wisdom" they ended by becoming the "Sons of Darkness." They had fallen in the battle of mortal life with Life immortal, and all those so fallen became the seed of the future generations of Atlanteans.

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 1, 2015 at 9:57am
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Would it be accurate and perhaps helpful to see man as a fallen god, an obscured or clouded god?

Permalink Reply by Alex Papandakis on May 7, 2015 at 8:10am
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It would certainly be helpful.  The quest for enlightenment could be characterized as a quest to "regain" one's godhood.  The effect of seeing ourselves crippled sinners has not helped all that much.  Maybe we are trying to heal our wings, how about that image?

Permalink Reply by Alex Papandakis on May 7, 2015 at 8:06am
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"The struggle between the two began from the very day they tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Wisdom; a struggle for life between the spiritual and the psychic, the psychic and the physical."

A struggle between spiritual and physical would have been what I was expecting.  What is the struggle between spiritual and psychic?  What is the struggle between psychic and physical?

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 3, 2015 at 7:47am
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Hi Pierre and James,

There seems to be nowhere to reply under your recent posts on sevenfold lower manas/the globes etc, so I've had to put my reply here.  Actually, it's not so much a reply as just a few questions that arise from pondering on what you've both shared.  I put some basic thoughts, which no doubt you both know, just to provide a background for those not familiar with the topic and to indicate the relevance of my later questions.

Every globe in the sevenfold chain of planets has it mineral kingdom. The latter is at its most solidified state on globe D but does not exist solely on globe D.

“With sphere A, begins the mineral kingdom and runs the round of mineral evolution. By the time it is completed sphere B comes into objectivity and draws to itself the life which has completed its round on sphere A, and has become a surplus.(The fount of life being inexhaustible, for it is the true Arachnea doomed to spin out its web eternally -- save the periods of pralaya). Then comes vegetable life on sphere A, and the same process takes place. On its downward course “life” becomes with every state coarser, more material; on its upward more shadowy…”
(Mahatma Letter no.13)

See also ML 15 which describes how the evolution of monads which comprise the mineral kingdom moves from globe to globe.

The Monadic Essence, or evolutionary tide of ‘consciousness’, is said to pass through seven kingdoms of nature gradually differentiating throughout its long course as ‘Individuality’ for the monad is slowly attained, descending and ascending between spirit and matter on its grand journey. The seven kingdoms are:

- 3 elemental kingdoms (each represents a progressive descent of spirit into matter)
- the mineral kingdom (which acts as the turning point…)
- the vegetable, animal and human kingdoms (progressive ascent of matter into spirit)

The suggestion is that as each class of monads progresses to its next stage of evolution, the one behind moves along and takes up its place in the evolutionary journey. Therefore, as those monads passing through the human kingdom progress to the next stage (say, as Dhyani Buddhas) in the following mahamanvantara, the monads in the animal kingdom move into the human kingdom, those in the vegetable move into the animal kingdom and so on with those monads in the elemental kingdom moving in to the mineral kingdom. All this takes place in future great manvataras following the full completion of 7 rounds of all the globes of our chain, with the whole group evoluting on a higher plane in future manvataras. The progression of monads from the elemental kingdoms up to the human kingdom must be an extraordinary long length of time, being many maha-manvantaras in the future. (I’m using the term maha-manvatara to mean the complete transition of seven rounds through all seven globes of a planetary chain.)

One question might be, ‘Do all three classes of monads in the elemental kingdoms move into the mineral kingdom at the next maha-manvatara, or is it just those monads that constitute the lowest class of elementals?’ Either way, their transition from elemental to mineral kingdom leaves a gap behind them which will need to be filled if the same sevenfold progress of monads through seven kingdoms of nature is repeated in each new maha-manvatara.

If the monadic essence comprising all three elemental kingdoms makes the transition to the mineral kingdom at the next maha-manvatara then there will be a very big gap to fill behind. Where does that Monadic Essence which comprises the elemental kingdoms originally come from that will fill that gap? Some previous manvantara perhaps, far less developed than our own? But such a thought leads to a state of infinite regress.

- Let’s accept for the moment that the planetary spirit of our earth is comprised solely of the monadic essence of all three elemental kingdoms and that the mineral kingdom is the material body of the planetary spirit.
- Let’s also accept for the moment that the monadic essence of all three elemental kingdoms moves into the mineral kingdom at the next mahamanvatara.
- Let’s hypothosise that a new influx of the Monadic Essence flows in to fill the gap of the three elemental kingdoms that have now made the transition to the mineral kingdom in the new chain of globes.

What then is the status of the planetary spirit of our current chain with respect to the planet(s) of the new chain of globes? Does it cease to be a planetary spirit becoming merely the material body of the new planetary spirit of the new chain - the 'new' planetary spirit being made up of the new influx of Monadic Essence which forms the ‘new’ three elemental kingdoms of the new chain of globes?

If the current planetary spirit ceases to become a planetary spirit by virtue of it being comprised solely of the elementals which have now passed into the mineral kingdom of the new chain, that would suggest we cannot talk about the progress of such a planetary spirit.  Or, perhaps, there is something more as to the nature of a planetary spirit than just the monadic essence of the three elemental groups that are said to be its composition? In which case we could talk about the progress of such a planetary spirit, itself evolving with each new planetary chain.

Just some thoughts.

(original messages from Pierre and James can be found here:

http://theosophynexus.com/group/secret-doctrine-study-group/forum/t...

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 6, 2015 at 7:18am
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Some further information on the Mineral Monad:

HPB states that the term Mineral Monad simply refers to, "...the tidal wave of spiritual evolution...passing through that arc of its circuit."   As mentioned above, the Mineral Kingdom is one of the seven kingdoms of nature through which the Monadic Essence passes on its way to 'individuating' in the human kingdom.

Interestingly, while it is called 'The Mineral Monad' this term does mean that it is comprised solely of the inorganic material which constitutes our globe, i.e. rocks, minerals, gems, crystals etc. It appears to be the 'source' of all the physical atoms on this globe.  In the Secret Doctrine we read, 

"...as the spiritual Monad is One, Universal, Boundless and Impartite, whose rays, nevertheless, form what we, in our ignorance, call the “ Individual Monads ” of men, so the Mineral Monad — being at the opposite point of the circle — is also One — and from it proceed the countless physical atoms, which Science is beginning to regard as individualized."  (SD I 177)

Further on in this section of the SD we find the following statement:

"The atom, as represented in the ordinary scientific hypothesis, is not a particle of something, animated by a psychic something, destined after æons to blossom as a man. But it is a concrete manifestation of the Universal Energy which itself has not yet become individualized."   (SD I 178)

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 7, 2015 at 7:43pm
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So does this mean there are various classes of Monads and that the difference between them are levels of consciousness, self-consciousness and perceptive capacities? Is the Mineral Monad pre-self-conscious?

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 13, 2015 at 10:43pm
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Gerry, there are indeed 7 hierarchies (or classes) of human "lunar" monads, the highest of these only representing the lunar pitris or fathers. It would be a good practice to call them hierarchies instead of classes because later on HPB divides these 7 hierarchies again in 3 classes (!) It would prevent confusion as it is already confusing enough :-)

These 7 hierarchies of human lunar monads represent the life wave of human monads developing on our (earth) planetary chain, but this life wave (as pointed out in my answer to Peter below) is just one out of 7 life waves.

Now, what often leads to more confusion is that the human monads moving through the mineral kingdom stage (or any other for that matter) are then referred to as mineral monads, but are actually the human monads moving through and "shaping" the physical chemical elements within the mineral kingdom. Why human monads? Because those monads had already reached the human stage on the moon chain but have first on our chain the task to evolve the (astral) species in the lower kingdoms before reaching the human stage.

Now as there are 6 other life waves (each representing the potentiality of the 6 kingdoms below man) already present on our earth chain - before the arrival of the human monads - each of these life waves represent in turn monads evolving through their own lines of evolution. So the mineral life wave represents the "mineral" monads, that are more mineral than the human monad moving through the mineral kingdom, if you get my drift :-)

You can imagine what darwinist must be thinking of us crazy students of theosophy! :-)

So yes, the human monad moving through the mineral kingdom is - if you like to use that expression - pre-self-conscious (because it has the lower manasic wick as a potentiality from the get go), but can not manifest it until it has evolved a sufficiently complex vehicle (astral brain) in the human kingdom that will allow for its manasic potential to be awakened by the manasaputra. Even the mineral monad of the mineral life wave has this potential but will have to wait several more planetary chain incarnations before it arrives at the stage where it will be called in turn a human monad. Hope this sort of answers your question.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 13, 2015 at 10:04pm
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Hi Peter, re: your very interesting question.

"One question might be, ‘Do all three classes of monads in the elemental kingdoms move into the mineral kingdom at the next maha-manvatara, or is it just those monads that constitute the lowest class of elementals?’ Either way, their transition from elemental to mineral kingdom leaves a gap behind them which will need to be filled if the same sevenfold progress of monads through seven kingdoms of nature is repeated in each new maha-manvatara."

The way I perceive it is that although the expression is often used that - for instance - the 3rd elemental kingdom precipitates in or as the mineral kingdom, it is only in a matter of speech. None of the elemental kingdoms per se ever move into a different level, what moves THROUGH the kingdoms and evolves the vehicles - that we recognize as kingdoms - is what determines the evolution and which are the monads or jivas if you like, which in themselves (as atma-buddhis) or pure spiritual buddhis, represent the potentiality of consciousness, motion, learning, experience, etc. (atma) and the potentiality of vehicles or souls (buddhi). The buddhi aspect is the receptacle of all these experiences, and the atma the driving potential force so to speak.

As you yourself pointed out: “The Monadic Essence, or evolutionary tide of ‘consciousness’, is said to pass through seven kingdoms of nature gradually differentiating throughout its long course”.

This monadic essence (the hiranyagarbha, of any monad as a matter of fact) represents ALL the potentialities of the 7 principles to be evolved, but those potentialities only become actuated through the "interference" of higher hierarchies of being - by proxy - so to say. Therefore the manasaputra - at a certain stage of development - actuates or ignites the self-conscious potentiality existing within the monad (the wick of lower manas), the lunar pitri provides the chaya, but both this solar and lunar aspect are already part and parcel of the monad as a potential.

"The doctrine teaches that the only difference between animate and inanimate objects on earth, between an animal and a human frame, is that in some the various "fires" are latent, and in others they are active. The vital fires are in all things and not an atom is devoid of them. But no animal has the three higher principles awakened in him; they are simply potential, latent, and thus non-existing." SDII:267

non-existing meaning of course 'not objective and active’ because they exist subjectively as potentialities within the monad. ALL principles by definition are part and parcel of the monad - any monad, but are either potential or active.

The life wave that is primarily dealt with in the SD consists of “human” monads and constitutes only one out of 7 life waves moving along the planetary chain, there are thus 6 other life waves representing lesser developed monads still evolving. In fact they arrived prior to the human life wave, otherwise there would have been nothing to objectively represent the planetary chain for the arriving human monads to work with, so these 6 “lower” life waves represent the potential of the future kingdoms that will be evolved by the human life wave moving through them and giving form to that potential in each wave. There is only an occasional reference to these life waves in the SD but more can be found in the Mahatma Letters.

When the human life wave runs its rounds, the other life waves remain - so to speak - in suspension or stasis in their respective globes - until the human life wave - passes through again and evolves new species for every kingdom. Therefore the SD says that these globes are in the mean time in a “globe” pralaya.

There are thus no gaps left behind, when the monads move through a certain stage of evolution, whether that be the elemental, mineral, vegetable or other kingdoms. Although the number of HUMAN monads (that is monads evolving within the human kingdom) circling around the globes is limited for any given manvantara, the potentiality of lesser developed monads is inexhaustible, because prakriti itself is inexhaustible and eternal. HPB points out that the interstellar spaces between planets, solar systems and we may presume by extension galaxies and so on, are "filled" with potentialities (monads) that have not become "activated" as yet and fulfill their functions as representing - to us - “objective” space.

The reality of the foregoing is of course a lot more complex, I’ve tried to summarize the ideas.

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 19, 2015 at 6:54am
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Pierre, thanks for your thoughts, above. I’m still catching up, so this is a somewhat delayed response.

Are we saying something different? I couldn’t work it out from your post. As I understand it, the Monadic essence that is passing through the three elemental kingdoms - and which to all intents and purposes comprises those kingdoms during that evolutionary stage - will at some future maha-manvatara pass into the human kingdom. In other words, in some far off manvatara the elementals will be the human monads of a particular planetary chain of globes. HPB states as much in SD I 277:

“..the inferior, semi-intelligent and non-intelligent Elementals — are all future men.”

Isn’t the progression of the monadic essence such that it eventually (over many maha-manvataras) passes through all the seven kingdoms of nature (3 elemental, mineral, vegetable, animal, human), differentiating as it goes along? (The human monads of our Earth Chain recap the mineral, vegetable, animal process in the first three rounds.) If that is the case, would it be correct to say that at some stage in the very far off future that the ‘elementals’ (the monadic essence passing through that kingdom in this chain) will in time be the monadic host passing through the mineral kingdom, then vegetable, animal and human in a future planetary chains? Or is this not the right view?

Of course, there can never be any real gaps in the flow of evolution on any planetary chain. I used the term ‘gap’ in my earlier post only to suggest that when those monads that constitute the elemental kingdoms move on to their next stage, the mineral kingdom, another group or groups will need to follow behind if the overall structure of the seven kingdoms of nature is to be maintained from planetary chain to chain in our solar system. (For all we know, there may be a different number of kingdoms in other solar systems or galaxies, but that's another question.)

BTW, the context of my question as to the elementals' future stages was related to an underlying query, namely, whether the Planetary Spirit of out Earth is comprised solely of the three elemental kingdoms. So, how we understand the above may well shape our understanding of what constitutes the Planetary Spirit.  Well, that was my line of thought - right or wrong.

My original post in this thread is here:  

http://theosophynexus.com/group/secret-doctrine-study-group/forum/t...

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 19, 2015 at 4:37pm
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Hi Peter, nope, we're not saying something different, perhaps we're just expressing it differently :-)

When you pose the question: "would it be correct to say that at some stage in the very far off future that the ‘elementals’ (the monadic essence passing through that kingdom in this chain) will in time be the monadic host passing through the mineral kingdom, then vegetable, animal and human in a future planetary chains? Or is this not the right view?"

That seems to be indeed the process HPB is explaining in the SD in view of your quote: "…the inferior, semi-intelligent and non-intelligent Elementals — are all future men."

But… I'm honestly a little bit at a loss myself by HPBs remark in SDI:178. It's not easy to understand it correctly as it relates to the above reference:

"The "Monad" is the combination of the last two "principles" in man, the 6th and the 7th, and, properly speaking, the term "human monad" applies only to the dual soul (Atma-Buddhi), not to its highest spiritual vivifying Principle, Atma, alone. But since the Spiritual Soul, if divorced from the latter (Atma) could have no existence, no being, it has thus been called . . . . Now the Monadic, or rather Cosmic, Essence (if such a term be permitted) in the mineral, vegetable, and animal, though the same throughout the series of cycles from the lowest elemental up to the Deva Kingdom, yet differs in the scale of progression. It would be very misleading to imagine a Monad as a separate Entity trailing its slow way in a distinct path through the lower Kingdoms, and after an incalculable series of transformations flowering into a human being; in short, that the Monad of a Humboldt dates back to the Monad of an atom of horneblende. Instead of saying a "Mineral Monad," the more correct phraseology in physical Science, which differentiates every atom, would of course have been to call it "the Monad manifesting in that form of Prakriti called the Mineral Kingdom."

So, one would think from what HPB says in your quote from SDI:277, that the elementals themselves become indeed human, whereas from the above quote on p.178 one would think that that is not the case (!?) as the monad is NOT "a separate Entity trailing its slow way in a distinct path through the lower Kingdoms, and after an incalculable series of transformations flowering into a human being."

I think that as students we probably and understandably err in our understanding of what is really meant by the monadic essence (Atma-Buddhi). Of course, the easy way out would be to think of the monadic essence (and which btw is correct) as solely an abstraction, i.e. Atma as the power or potentiality to move, perceive, evolve, etc. and Buddhi, as the power to be moved, etc. But, that would only be an abstraction TO US. On it's own plane the monad would indeed be something "concrete" (don't take this too literally please :-). Personally I think the problem is related to our inability at present (as we exist with our human mind in duality) that what we perceive as universal cannot at the same time be individual, whereas individual in reality (from the Latin individus, non-divisible) means indivisible - thus universal in a certain sense! Our mind on this plane cannot at present cope with such a concept, we want it to be either this or that way, whereas in truth this concept may be the reality of it.

So, our views run indeed parallel if not completely identical, but they probably need some fine tuning :-)

As to a possible hiatus left behind after the last elemental moves through its appointed cycle, I would surmise (and there are many indicators in the SD to that perspective) that as the 1st elemental kingdom corresponds with prakriti or the homogeneous substance, there really never is a void because prakriti in itself (or space if you like) is inexhaustible. There are at present shoals of monadic essences that do not partake of any (to us) specific solar or planetary evolution but simply function as (again to us) pure space, their pralaya so to speak.

As to "whether the Planetary Spirit of our Earth is comprised solely of the three elemental kingdoms", yes indeed, except not the elemental kingdoms - or at least not solely - through which the monads evolve on any individual globe, but rather as the 3 elemental kingdoms that I have been corresponding with the 3 rupa planes. The planetary Spirit is a very complex issue, because HPB says clearly that the Planetary Spirit is not a Dhyani-Buddha (in Transactions p. 48), but there are places in the SD where she equates the two or at least they are used in that fashion. I think the problem there relates again to her use of the formula which is applicable to EVERYTHING she is discussing in the SD. Don't forget that the whole planetary chain represents the 7 principles of the Planetary Spirit (which is not of a very high grade as you may recall). Our globe D being it's gross physical body.

Well, let's sail on for now :-)

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 5, 2015 at 4:43am
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Pierre writes:

"The Planetary Spirit itself is obviously not the mineral kingdom but seems indeed to be represented by the Elemental kingdom(s), making up its Atma-Buddhi-Manas"

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I'm not sure the correspondence to Atma-Buddhi-Manas is correct, Pierre, but I may be misunderstanding you?  See, for example,the following from the Mahatma Letters to Sinnett.  Speaking of the transfer of evolution from 'old' planetary chain to the newly evolving chain of globes, the Mahatma writes:

"Now the life impulse reaches “A” or rather that which is destined to become “A” and which so far is but cosmic dust. A centre is formed in the nebulous matter of the condensation of the solar dust disseminated through space and a series of three evolutions invisible to the eye of flesh occur in succession, viz., three kingdoms of elementals or nature forces are evoluted: in other words the animal soul of the future globe is formed; or as a Kabalist will express it, the gnomes, the salamanders, and the undines are created."

The Mahatma goes on to say:

'The correspondence between a mother-globe and her child-man may be thus worked out. Both have their seven principles. In the Globe, the elementals (of which there are in all seven species) form (a) a gross body, (b) her fluidic double (linga sariram), (c) her life principle (jiva); (d) her fourth principle kama rupa is formed by her creative impulse working from centre to circumference; (e) her fifth principle (animal soul or Manas, physical intelligence) is embodied in the vegetable (in germ) and animal kingdoms; (f) her sixth principle (or spiritual soul, Buddhi) is man (g) and her seventh principle (atma) is in a film of spiritualized akasa that surrounds her. The three evolutions completed: palpable globe begins to form.'

(from ML no. 15)

The key phrase above with regards to our topic appears to be:  "the elementals...form (a) a gross body, (b) her fluidic double, (c) her life principle.."    However, interesting;y the term 'animal soul' is used to refer to both the three classes of elementals in the first passage above and to the vegetable and animal kingdoms in the second passage above.

There also appears to be 'activity' occurring in the formation of the globe(s) prior to the three series of evolutions  related to the elemental kingdoms.  This is indicated by the phrase in the above quote "a centre is formed in the nebulous matter".  We also see reference to this 'prior' activity in another Mahatma Letter where the Mahatma refers to failures in the race of Dhyan Chohans: such failures being thrown into the "influx" of globe forming prior to the three elemental kingdoms.

'Now there are – there must be “failures” in the etherial races of the many classes of Dyan Chohans or Devas as well as among men. But still as these failures are too far progressed and spiritualized to be thrown back forcibly from their Dyan Chohanship into the vortex of a new primordial evolution through the lower kingdoms – this then happens. When a new solar system is to be evolved these Dyan Chohans are (remember the Hindu allegory of the Fallen Devas hurled by Siva into Andarah who are allowed by Parabrahm to consider it as an intermediate state where they may prepare themselves by a series of rebirths in that sphere for a higher state – a new regeneration) born in by the influx “ahead” of the elementals and remain as a latent or inactive spiritual force in the aura of the nascent world of a new system until the stage of human evolution is reached.'

(from ML no. 14)

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 6, 2015 at 7:49pm
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Hi Peter and Pierre,
Thanks Peter you are bringing up some very interesting points on evolution.
Pierre, I originally suggested ‘confusion’ and brought up the Globes and our bodies as I was unsure if the newer readers knew of all this, and not sure if l mentioned this time round , that the Globes interpenetrate each other. Peter and l have touched on this downward evolution before and from memory it confused some. 
Also there is a correspondence between man and Globe as Peter stated, but it is not a direct one on one correspondence. In one sense we are a cell in his body, (rather cancerous at times) 
As far as the consciousness/monad of  Globe D goes,  perhaps if we remember an earlier post of Gerry’s ‘The Triple Evolution’, which I expanded on a little .
Here HPB took her own advice and coined the English words, Electric fire, Solar fire and Fire by friction for the Sanskrit words covering Spirit, Soul and Body.
I also stated that a basic knowledge of these three fires is very helpful in understanding the whole evolutionary process described in the SD.
 
There is a life ensouling all forms which adds an aspect each step, take a mineral atom, it has a certain discriminative ability as it chooses where to manifest, rock or gem.
Then in the vegetable kingdom a sensation of a rudimentary kind is seen and added. Next in the animal kingdom adds instinct to the previous two. In human intellect is added.
Also the sex impulse starts in the vegetable kingdom with cross pollination and even male and female ‘paw paw trees’ 
Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 7, 2015 at 7:32pm
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Your post is so interesting.  It makes me think of how all of these lives, however defined, however enclosed, interpenetrate one another in an endless chain of being.  Millions of lives make up our bodies, we in turn a cell of the earth etc. etc.  Sure strikes a chord for mobility of perspective.

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 8, 2015 at 10:37am
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Hi James,

Yes, there are lots of interesting aspects of the globes and monadic evolution to explore. I’m not sure that we’ve raised any issues in our most recent posts which would suggest that Jon and Pierre are wrong to suggest that the diagram of the globes on SD I 200 can be made to apply by analogy and correspondence to any principle or to Higher and Lower Manas in particular, which proposal seems to be where the current thread of exchanges began.  I suspect we would need to try out some specific analogies between the Manas and that diagram with its higher planes and lower seven globes before accepting or rejecting that proposal.

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 8, 2015 at 10:46pm
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Hi Pierre, Peter.
The following is a very basic general framework of how l understand it, with a lot of gaps of course.
 
The Triangle as per HPB,  Point 1 Crown(Purpose or Will; James) 2 Wisdom, 3 Intelligence.
Then from Intelligence(3rd Logos) after the sounding of the ‘Word’ or ‘Voice’ comes the ‘Army of the Voice’, the Cosmic builders, the Primordial 7 Rays which contain everything for the coming
universe, whether angles or devils, men or ape, everything is there in the 7 Rays.
They build the Universe.
Here we have a trinity above the seven principles and planes of the Universe and could be called the Spiritual Monad.
In man we call this the ‘Spiritual Monad’ ‘Our Father in Heaven’ not to be confused with the Human Monad.
Quote SD 1 574; The monad, then, viewed as ONE, is above the seventh principle (in Kosmos and man), and as a triad, it is the direct radiant progeny of the said compound UNIT,
 
The same idea is reflected down through the Universe to our Solar System.
We can look at the Mythology of the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades who were the Seven Wives of the seven Rishis of the Great Bear, and between them produced the Seven Sons of Light, which maybe linked to the seven Solar Systems mentioned in E. Buddhism, ours being one of. 
  
Now our 7  Sacred planets are the spheres of the indwelling 7 Rays who oversee our planet and man.
These 7 Rays each correspond to a specific plane of the Solar System and to one of the 7 principle in man. (Venus to the left eye of the Intellect, Mercury the right eye or Buddhi,  Mercury is yellow like Buddhi, ) Here HPB has directly related two Sacred Planets Rays to the Mental and Buddhic planes. The Greeks and Romans connect all the Sacred Planets to their specific plane and giving their function on that plane if somewhat veiled.
Mans 7 principles only cover the lower five planes of our system with his ‘Monad’ being on the sixth/second plane and ‘theoretically’ Vulcan who does not appear to have a solid physical body could correspond to the highest plane.
They are, or at lest some of them are conscious on all 7 planes of the Solar System. They would have to be if they built and oversee it all.
There is no direct correlation between the seven rupa globes of our planet and the 7 Sacred Planets, except to say that each Sacred Planet has, or did have, seven rupa globes of their own.
At least some, if not all, of their descending globes will be dormant, or partially dormant, by now as l understand. Venus for instance is approaching the end of her cycle  we are told so the downward evolution would have transformed upward of whatever exactly happens there.
 
I have never studied the Kabalistic tree except to link it together from HPB’s words, and i am suggesting the following is approximately how it works
Esoterically the lower 7 relate to the 7 Rays/Sacred Planets and the upper triangle to the Trinity, or 1st, 2nd, 3rd Logos.
However as half the Sacred Planets were not discovered when it was drawn up, plus the fact it was esoteric and not for all to see, the known planets both Sacred and non-sacred were substituted for the unknown, or those known only to the Initiates of the time. HPB also states that some of the time they only used four planes instead of seven which could further confuse the issue more.
 
HPB tell us Saturn, Jupiter, Mercury, and Venus are the four exoteric planets, and the three others, which must remain unnamed, are the Sacred planets. Since then she has added Vulcan and she thinks Uranus, leaving possibly one to come at that point in time although known to initiates of old, and known now to those who look.
Its very interesting how she worded the sun and moon as veiling the unknown planets and tells us that the occult influence of one comes through the moon. Here she is actually giving one of the keys to Occult Astrology and by her wording I am sure she knew it.
Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 9, 2015 at 7:32pm
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Hi Peter,
I am not sure if I suggested they were wrong, just that I could did not see it that way and asked for a ‘quote’ from Jon to which Pierre replied.
However on revisiting Pierre’s post on 28 April there is is a lot of speculation with no reason behind it, especially with VOS quotes.
Quote; we often think that our daily waking consciousness applies to lower manas whereas in fact it is only concerned with kama-manas or globe D. To me this is a very bold statement and definitely incorrect for people consciously on the path of purification, although it may well apply to a lot of average humanity depending on their line of work and point of evolution. An average factory worker as against a historical writer for example.
Also; This ladder forms thus those 7 steps or globes+ring of lower manas -  If this is correct l think it deserves a please explain more fully.
From memory l once pointed out, may have been last year, that l considered too much ‘speculative emphasis’ is placed on the page 200 diagram, without proper knowledge of what each globe was made up, their natural involutionary path, and effect on man, plus how mans bodies is part of each globe. If l hadn’t of brought this up again it would have gone by un-mentioned.
 
I would like to know how the elementals evolve after Globe D, l suspect at least some evolve into lower devas. Also whether the elemental that makeup mans bodies become like a well trained domestic animal and follow their master instead of leading him, or whether another change takes place and they evolve into a form of deva essence.
We need to look at this from the angle of the ‘Earth Animal’ of diagram p. 200, do we in purifying our bodies(training our elementals) purify the mental and desire planes which inturn purifies the Earth Animal so it evolves too. Also will those following behind get finer elementals to make up their bodies when they incarnate hasting their evolution.
All thoughts to ponder 
Permalink Reply by Jon Fergus on May 10, 2015 at 10:33am
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In regards to the diagram on p.200: after Pierre's wonderful response, I felt no need to add more. I know that he and I have both come to approach that diagram in a certain way, through the use of a certain kind of analogy/correspondence/formula. That approach may not work for all, but in our efforts to test the hypothesis we've yet to find any gaping holes in it.

re: our daily consciousness. If we keep in mind that the principle that is being chiefly developed in the 4th round is Kama, we must, I think, come to recognize that the "manasic" quality of our average daily consciousness is indeed but a kama-manasic one. If we are currently developing the sub-principles of Kama that correspond to manas and (in some rare folks) buddhi (corresponding to the 5th and 6th root races, respectively), then we are still yet to work our way into "lower manas" per se, as that development would take place during the first half of the 5th round (again, just my current understanding of the development). I'd agree that in some individuals the development is far more progressed, but would propose that these are exceedingly rare (the "fifth-rounders" mentioned by HPB, of which she included Plato and a few others; even, if I recall correctly, Mrs. Anna Kingsford, which would imply perhaps a few others in the theosophical movement). This is, of course, just my understanding and may not reflect accurately the point Pierre was trying to make (in fact, I'd be quite confident he has a much deeper approach to his reasoning).

One thing I will say, is that I do think us theosophists often tend to over-estimate where our current consciousness is. I often hear people say things like, "we're in the hall of learning", or "we're working on developing higher manas"... but to my view, we're a long way off of these. At least, 99% of us, anyway. It's also my opinion that we'd be wise not to imagine that just because we're studying theosophy our consciousness is leaps and bounds more progressive than the "average factory worker."

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 10, 2015 at 5:41pm
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Hi Jon,
Firstly nowhere did i say a ‘Theosophists’ consciousness is leaps and bounds more progressive than the "average factory worker." those are your words.
I compared an average factory worker with a Historical Writer, average meaning a lot of mankind is is focused on everyday pleasures of the earth, therefore he would be concerned with kama-manas as Pierre clearly indicated, but I was trying to show that the more advanced mankind was rapidly moving out of that area by using a historical writer. 
Now a Historical Writer is using their lower mind to assess facts from the past and put write them in a logical order for others to read. His driving force is possibly more of an aspiration to expand others minds by showing them mans history, than just a desire to see his name in the public light. This I hope shows the different mindset I was indicating. Also remember there is approximately one whole root race (consciousness level) difference in mankind so naturally a big difference in individual men.
 
Moving on  dia. 200 is comparing two philosophy's as well as other things.
Quote;  ‘These seven planes correspond to the seven states ofconsciousness in man.  It remains with him to attune the three higher states in himself to the three higher planes in Kosmos (Solar system)
And; The seven states of human consciousness pertain to quite another question,
I have underlined planes, correspond, and consciousness, as the second line indicates mans consciousness does not have a direct one on one relationship which i mentioned in my last post.
Also from the first line, are we possibly getting our meanings mixed together i.e. seven states of consciousness, principles, and the process. She clearly indicates the planes represent the seven states of consciousness, not the Globes.
As I normally take the planes as levels of consciousness, some of your analogy's possibly don’t look right first up. I am also wondering if Pierre may have been unclear to which he was indicating at times as well. 
 
I originally asked for a quote to indicate how you both came to your conclusions, I see Pierre has just posted one so will stop here.
Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 23, 2015 at 12:45pm
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I agree with you here Jon and I think Peter makes a similar point.  There is no way to judge another human being's state of consciousness through externals.  Property, position, nor occupation tell us very little about these matters. In fact it does not take much to fool us given how taken in by appearances we have a tendency to be.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 19, 2015 at 7:11am
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James asks:  “…do we in purifying our bodies(training our elementals) purify the mental and desire planes which inturn purifies the Earth Animal so it evolves too. Also will those following behind get finer elementals to make up their bodies when they incarnate hasting their evolution.”

I wonder, James, if the following from The Collected Writings sheds any light on your question?  There’s a similar passage a few pages earlier in the same section.

“In the cases of higher Adeptship, when the body is entirely at the command of the Inner Man, when the Spiritual Ego is completely reunited with its seventh principle even during the lifetime of the personality, and the Astral Man or personal Ego has become so purified that he has gradually assimilated all the qualities and attributes of the middle nature (Buddhi and Manas in their terrestrial aspect) that personal Ego substitutes itself, so to say, for the spiritual Higher Self, and is thenceforth capable of living an independent life on earth; when corporeal death takes place, the following mysterious event often happens. As a Dharmakāya, a Nirvāni “without remains,” entirely free from terrestrial admixture, the Spiritual Ego cannot return to reincarnate on earth. But in such cases, it is affirmed, the personal Ego of even a Dharmakāya can remain in our sphere as a whole, and return to incarnation on earth if need be. For now it can no longer be subject, like the astral remains of any ordinary man, to gradual dissolution in the Kāma-Loka (the limbus or purgatory of the Roman Catholic, and the “Summer-land” of the Spiritualist); it cannot die a second death, as such disintegration is called by Proclus.* It has become too holy and pure, no longer by reflected but by its own natural light and spirituality, either to sleep in the unconscious slumber of a lower Nirvānic state, or to be dissolved like any ordinary astral shell and disappear in its entirety.”

CW XIV 383  (from “The Doctrine of the Avatars.”)

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 19, 2015 at 4:49pm
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Thanks for that quote Peter, I was recently in search of it but couldn't recall where I read it, you saved my bacon :-)

Permalink Reply by Peter on May 23, 2015 at 6:40am
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As a fellow student, I'm only pleased to have helped, Pierre. As a vegetarian, should I protest?

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 23, 2015 at 12:39pm
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Protest what? I am sorry I don't follow, please explain.

Permalink Reply by Pierre Wouters on May 23, 2015 at 1:00pm
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Hi Gerry, Peter is referring to my joking comment on the previous page where I said he "saved my bacon" by coming up with a reference I had been looking for over the last week but couldn't find. As Peter is a vegetarian, he quipped back with this comment :-)

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on May 23, 2015 at 2:15pm
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Inside joke, I get it. Meta-Psychology prank.

Permalink Reply by james E Orchard on May 20, 2015 at 6:28pm
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Hi Peter,
Your answer is very interesting and seems to cover another part of our evolution. Could these be the future 'Solar Angels' who will incarnate in a future 'Animal Man' in another World period as they  have their own 'natural light and spirituality' similar to our Solar Angels who had been men in a previous manvantara.
 
My question, which may not have been clear enough, had more to do with the elementals that make up our various bodies. Some teachings suggest by purifying our thought life we are casting out the courser elementals from our mental body so they can carry on with their downward evolution. Understandably it is suggested these are replaced with finer particles of rupa matter. If this is the case and it seems likely, what do these finer particles consist of? Could they be some sort of deva/deva substance on the upward evolutionary arc that may become a future Deva, Agnisattva, or similar.